All this RTFM stuff...

[Syzop]

[yeah this is technically off-topic, but it's really about this section, so...]
This "RTFM!!!!"-alike stuff is getting a bit out of hand...
It's almost like the more you say it, the more exclamation marks, the more unpleasant you bitch at users, the better you are!
When I look at this forum it's getting less friendly every day. It's contagious / hyped up.

I'm afraid we have to face the truth, which is that >90% of all questions are in the docs/faq...
We probably have one of the best docs out there (compared to other ircds) but..
does that mean we should be angry at them and just reply with "RTFM" all the time? without giving them a pointer?

Let's give an example:

Hey all, when I start unreal, in the bootup screen it gives me this:

The OS enforces a limit on max open files
Hard Limit: 768 MAXCONNECTIONS: 1024
Fix MAXCONNECTIONS

I have edited the config.settings file to reflect 768 and have also edited the config.h file. Neither seemed to do any good.

Which file is Unreal reading this from? Thanks!

Please read the FAQ:

http://www.vulnscan.org/UnrealIrcd/faq/#11

That's good, it points to the faq, the exact FAQ question&answer (which says he should run ./Config to adjust it)... problem solved.

Then a 3rd person jumps in saying (literally) 'RTFM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!' (even AFTER the question has already been answered).
Not only here but in a lot of other places by other people too (hi jewles ;p). Sometimes even X posts like that.
It's useless, unfriendly and annoying.

I do welcome anyone here to help others out, but just bitching at users >half of the time is not really helpful.

End of rant ;).

[aquanight]

Well said .

/me gives Syzop a cookie.

Now it just needs to be stickied ;p

[jewles]

well shit... i'm not the only one that get "ANNOYED" with answer the same questions over and over... I've been coming in and out of unreal's channel for the last few years.... watching it change and grow.... last big change I saw beside the final release of unreal 3.2 was the quiz for getting +v on the channel. and why? to test at a minimal whether ot not people have read any of the documenation... Well we don't have that on the forums. So the few of us who are here try our best when it comes to helping others.... Shit man, I have no problem helping... I've been begging you guys for the last year if there is anything I can do to help... and finally did what I needed to be a "officaial supporter"... but when it comes to answering quesitons that can be found within the docs... I get a bit annoyed... as you do if some one would entering the channel asking help for linking services...

I would have been more happy had you said something within the moderators forum, or privately on the channel.... but I can't help that... I just doin't like being singled out like that... I feel that I've been doing a good job helping with support on the forums and channel... and whether or not you agree I should know first...

*walk away*

[Dukat]

It's really kinda annoying getting the same Questions over and over again, just because people can't read the Docs.

But, what could WE do?

I see several "enhancement" possibilities:

1. Add a Quiz to the forums
   This seems quite unrealistic / too hard to implement / too easy to circumvent
2. Put all the documentation in just ONE place
   I think this would help people a lot. ATM there is the CVS docs and the FAQ at vulnscan, the Forums here, Unrealsupport at wcalliance.com, the chat #unreal-support and the official Homepage at http://www.unrealircd.com.
   Why don't put it all together? E.g. create a subdomain documentation.unrealricd.com, where EVERYTHING is.
3. Only Link the Forums from the Documentation Page
   Could help. So you would have to go to the documentation page first.
4. Use a WiKi for the FAQ.
   So everyone (or several selected people) could add FAQ entries. This could improve the FAQ. (Oh, you could use this Wiki for the whole documentation page...)
5. DON'T link people to the CVS Documentation.
   This just confuses people. Put the CVS Version of the documentation somewhere else and mark it clearly as CVS Version. Put the "real" Version of the Documentation (= the version matching the current release) online and always link that one.
   There often are Questions (e.g. cloaking module) considering features that are not in the release but in the CVS, because people just use the "current" Documentation.
6. Always close threads in the Forums as soon as the question is answered.

Oh well...
Long list *g*
Ideas? Comments?

[AngryWolf]

I don't like either when 3 or more people send back the same "RTFM" answer, or someone offers an unnecessary remark that doesn't contain any useful information. One of them is already enough. Additionally, I'ld be more happy to see only a fair number or punctuation marks that are enough to communicate, and not more. For example, a discussion like "- What the hell is this??????? - RTFM!!!!!" is offensive. Not only the supporters are having this problem. I answer "RTFM" very rarely, but when I do, I think it's well-founded. Thought I agree that perhaps I should have guided them to the proper section of the documentation. (Sorry.)

I agree with the 5th point of Ducat's post. It would be more convenient for everyone to have a non-CVS online documentation that you can refer its sections when needed. In my opinion the 6th point needs a little more discussion, as the answers written by different people can be wrong.

[Syzop]

jewles, reason I didn't post this in the moderators forum is *exactly* because it's not (just) about you... if it was I would have done that. But it was about a larger group of people which I didn't want to attack personally.

Dukat:
1. [add quiz] Well it's probably possible and not too hard, I don't know phpBB but it sounds to me like just a bit like the image verification thingy. But, not sure if the idea itself is good or not.. so far the 'idiot ratio' is pretty ok if you ask me ;p.
2. [put all the docs in 1 place] I don't really understand what the problem is.. the docs contain a link to the faq, so do Unreal.nfo, topic in #unreal-support, sticky thread here, etc... From http://www.unrealircd.com the forum, bugtracker, mailinglist, faq, etc are linked. wcalliance.com is dead/gone for a long time now. Etc etc.. What I can see useful is adding a link to the docs too @ 'Support' @ unrealircd.com
3. True, but no ;p
4. I'm not to keen on that... I've thought of the idea before (few months ago when I was reading an article on Wiki) and I rather think it will get messed up... And, with a restricted group it's pretty much like CVS (and in such a case I would actually prefer CVS). Also note that both the faq & unreal32docs require both good technical knowledge and knowing how to explain stuff to users clearly/easily.. This sounds easier than it is, stuff quickly becomes a large story when in fact you want it short so you keep the users attention, stuff must be nicely formatted or else it will look like 1 big block of text, etc etc... I did see a few people here that would qualify, I'm just saying that writing docs isn't something for everyone :P. If anyone is interrested to improve the docs more, feel free to mail me (syzop -at- unrealircd -dot- com) and tell me what your thoughts are, what you want to improve, etc..
5. Probably. At the time I decided to use offer online cvs docs, the docs were updated a lot by me, reformatted + made more clear etc, so it made sense to have the much more clear docs online than to wait every release. Currently, there's not much work done on that anymore and it's mostly new features that are added... So it kinda makes sense to use release-docs now (or actually: just offer both).
6. It would indeed cut noise, but someone might have some more (related) questions/problems. We decided from the start that we wouldn't do locking unless for some specific issues, like: +I/spy mods, really old versions, offtopic, really annoying stuff, ..

[codemastr]

The RTFM isn't the only thing that's bothering me, it's also the level of swearing. On this thread alone, the word "shit" was used twice in a single post. I'm not saying we need to censor or anything, I'm just saying just because someone asks a question you deem to be stupid doesn't mean you have to start treating them like they are worthless garbage (which is the way many of the replies here seem to treat the users).

[jewles]

most of that is done to make an "impact" depending on the situation, a question is asked that has been answered in several places or is common knowledge with a minimal experience of unreal or standard operations of operating systems... so that maybe next time before posting they'd consider a little bit of research ie "reading" before asking for help...

codemastr you said it best... "We aren't here to give you the answers, we are the last level of help for you, not the first" or well something to that effect, and I guess that worst the questions got the worst I got... and since most of the "helpers" are buddies of mine that they followed in how I was acting... (setting a bad example)

[w00t]

I do _try_ to avoid it,

but when you see useless question after useless question... It's almost as if the amount of punctuation in your post indicates your morale. I know that mine hsa been dropping.

True, it has been getting a bit out of hand, and I havent exactly been helping there. I've been getting a bit stressed with exams coming up and probably should have just left posting for a while, but now ive just had a long weekend, I am feeling somewhat recovered.

I do agree with most of the points listed, and in part, this is what UUDP was meant to be (before 1) I went mental and 2) I got WAY too busy), a documentation that was "idiot proof" and ... you get the point.

/me hangs his head in shame
Sorry all.

[Psadi]

To add a suggestion.
If instead of the index page of the forums can there be added a page that gives you the way to act before posting on the forum like there is in the sticky thread in here. That way when a user goes to the fourm to ask a question they get the info on how to act before asking the question. And from there they goes to the forums index page and then to the right forum. Mayby that will help in reducing the number of question that have been answered before.

[w00t]

Problem is, noone ever reads them.

[jewles]

doesn't really matter much anywho... most of the problem how to nicely invite people to read the documenation...

My only problem is that if you help someone by giving them the answers they will only ask another question... lol "If you fish for a man he'll be able to eat for a day, teach a man to fish he'll eat forever" or however it goes... and some people (not all) but some don't like the simple invations. so you gotta make more of an impression....

anywho, I think this topic is pretty much over and discuessed....